To say it in plain English, "your throwing the baby out with the bathwater". Lets use an example, a classic one employed by many non-Christians.
"Hey you Christian (said with accusation), you say God wrote the bible, and the bible says he exists, that's circular reasoning. Your argument is faulty, therefore your conclusions are false and God doesn't exist".
While the first statement: "Your argument is faulty" is correct, the speaker makes his OWN conclusion "God doesn't exist" based on someone else's argument. Now we have two mistakes in reasoning instead of one.
It doesn't matter how many arguments you refute; it does not invalidate the conclusions (Atheists: We won't get into burden of proof, or that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The "fact' remains that people do experience something which requires an explanation, so a conclusion must be drawn).
Other examples would be: "Evolution is a fact, therefore GOD does not exist", and the reverse argument as well Evolution is "NOT" a fact, therefore GOD "DOES" exist. Neither conclusion can be drawn from it's original premise.
Of course, its a hot topic, and emotional content and personal belief spill into this argument. This baby has been in the mud, rendering most conversations on it dirty water at best.
Most of you know that I am not a Christian. Many of you don't know, that I am NOT an atheist. I find as many or more faulty conclusions from Atheists as I do Christians. Many times, I also find Atheists emotional, pig headed, stubborn, and angry. This is not to say they all are, that would be a faulty conclusion. My point is, many Atheists have a habit of throwing out the baby with the bath water.
In this rejection, they will alienate many Christians. They've not only thrown out the baby and the bathwater, they've thrown out the 'bathtub', that is to say, the place for discussion, discourse, and reasonable understanding of both positions.
Therein lies one of the first problems for the Atheist: they tend to live in the blank space without filling it in. This makes Belief look "Positive" and non-belief "Negative".
Now, you may declare me a fence sitter. Fair enough. But all I am really saying is that I have not experienced God in the way many Christians claim, therefore I cannot come to a definitive conclusion. I remain open to the possibility. I think, to stretch out a thought here, that the experience of God is a personal one, and this experience cannot be imparted from one person to another person.
So, logically, if we start with:
"I have experienced the hand of God, Therefore I believe he exists", we see no faulty conclusions, and no way to refute the statements or claims.
Now, we have a bathtub that is clean, and a place for reasonable discourse. Lets all start there, shall we?
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For a large part of the world's population, there is a spiritual quest. Pascal called this a "God-shaped hole." Man fills this hole with a number of ideas, beliefs, and perhaps even desires. I am not a philosophical person. The question I come to is there multiple paths or one true path? Because of the grand design I see, I believe there was one Grand designer. I think many people also believe this and then it becomes a question of having faith. I choose to believe in the God of the Trinity. The God who provided a way for us to overcome our iniquities through Christ, Emmanuel "God with us". If one searches for God through people, they tend to be disappointed. Who hasn't been disappointed through the actions of other believers? Our eyes need to be on Christ, through his written word and prayer with the assistance of his helper...the Holy Spirit who seeks to point us towards Christ.
"Moody, the world has yet to see what God will do with a man fully consecrated to him." Henry Varley to D.L. Moody
D2, Lets agree on several points. I love the quote about the god shaped hole. Exactly. One grand designer/cause makes sense to me too. Call it the ultimate truth, the first cause, whatever. In some ways, finding 'proof' for that seems silly. I mean, we exist, right? isn't that the best proof of all? "What" that ONE thing is? Still open to debate. The personal experience is where it falls apart, as well as the concept of one person or another as a savior. Why are there so many different paths in the world? I agree with you, DON'T put your faith in people. I just happen to extend that axiom one (or several) man further than you do. You are wrong about one thing: You ARE a philosopher. :)
What have you found is the purpose of our existence? Why are we here and what are we supposed to be doing? Do we live in a terrarium for about 75 years on our own whit and go from there? What reliable sources to we have to go on? If we simply evolved, I see why people have little thought about how things pan out. On the other hand, if there is a creator it seems plausible one might at least contemplate this at some time. Those are broad generalizations, but those are the only two I know!
D2, the first question is THE question (ie: WHY?). I don't profess to know the answer. Yet I am unwilling to accept this answer on faith: THAT THERE IS SOMETHING ELSE. I'm not wired that way, although I have tried. Also, I don't think evolution would be a reason for 'giving up' on a higher power and objective morality; I think that's the dilemma of the either/or schools of thought. Evolution? That's the most Intelligent Design I could imagine! Lastly, for me, all life is precious regardless of the other questions/answers.
D2, One more thing I am grateful for this dialog with you. In contemporary society, its hard to have a good conversation about something like this. We didn't resort to name calling, or stepping outside the boundaries of respectfulness. Even if all we get, both of us, is a better understanding our own position, that's enough. Thank you.
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